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Post by gurthbruins on Nov 16, 2011 12:15:48 GMT
The most important word for me - not that I want to exaggerate the importance of words - is: Acceptance.
I'd like to illustrate that with a quotation from I Ching by Sam Reifler: my favourite teacher of many.
1. Thus you do not completely, deeply, effortlessly accept the will of God.
- Sam Reifler, I Ching / Hex 51 / moksha
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Post by popee on Nov 16, 2011 20:27:05 GMT
Acceptance is my favorite word. It seems synonymous with Truth somehow.
I don't know what to make of I Ching. I wouldn't discredit it (especially since I know so very little), but it strikes me as being somehow odd; like tarot cards or astrology.
I remember Terrence McKenna talking about his timewave zero experiment. Not that I give it much credence, but his computer generated I Ching somehow "ended" around about Dec 21, 2012.
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Post by tathagata on Nov 17, 2011 6:29:26 GMT
The cycles of nature are pretty easily observed by anyone...and I've noticed in my travels that people in completely different parts of the world who share very similar genotypes seem to have a lot of personality characteristics in common...so if someone were to study it long enough, ie generations... And study it guided by some meditational intuitive leaps like the ancient Indian scientists...astrology could be made to be pretty accurate in seeing a TENDENCY toward certain patterns in ones life... But I think the art was lost for the most part a long time ago... Lost in translation and accurate timelines...someone did some numerology stuff in me when I was younger at it seemed more accurate in define my prevailing life patterns lol...but in all of that ya have to figure in the choice of following the pattern or not... Which is a choice everyone has at some point lol
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Post by tathagata on Nov 17, 2011 6:31:35 GMT
Gurth I read a little of your bio at your website... There was a time when I still wanted to be something else when I grow up that I wished I had pursued theoretical math or physics... I especially liked Emergent Complexities and such ;-)
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Post by tathagata on Nov 17, 2011 6:34:32 GMT
If someone were to figure out some blend of Emergent Complexities and a kind of Multidemesional Fractal thingy you could probably really get some useful Mathematical insight into the patterns of life hehehe.
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Post by gurthbruins on Nov 17, 2011 7:28:36 GMT
re your comments, topee and tathagata: The I Ching, tarot and astrology are based on texts (words), as is the Bible and other scriptures. I Ching and Tarot both focus on describing situations and the appropriate psychological responses to each – a practical guide to the art of living, you might say. The value of these texts depends on the psychological and philosophical value of the texts. One could say the same of all scriptures. There are many different versions or interpretations, both in Yi Jing (= I Ching) and in Tarot. These vary in philosophical and spiritual value, according to the taste and estimation of the reader. There is indeed something odd: the addition of a chance factor. Imagine you go to a church service and the priest spins a coin to decide whether to talk about the new testament or old! And then spins it again to decide on first half or second half, and again to narrow it down again, until he is left with only one chapter. He then gives a sermon on that “randomly” selected chapter. He would then be aping the procedure of the YJ and Tarot. Spinning the coin, or otherwise introducing the element of “chance”, is based on the belief that there is nothing truly accidental or random, but that everything is part of God's will. So presumable God will control the random process to give you a message selected by God. Might not that be the best way of deciding where to turn? The YJ is regarded as one of the greatest works in Chinese philosophy. It has produced valued commentaries as well. Here is a commentary by Confucius on a certain section of YJ (my favourite quotation): "Life leads the thoughtful man on a path of many windings. Now the course is checked, now it runs straight again. Here winged thoughts may pour freely forth in words, There the heavy burden of knowledge must be shut away in silence. But when two people are at one in their inmost hearts, They shatter even the strength of iron or of bronze. And when two people understand each other in their inmost hearts, Their words are sweet and strong, like the fragrance of orchids." # Personally I seldom use coins to fix on a text to read, I just read the texts as a book for their inspiration, beauty, wisdom, etc. Astrology describes the psychology of man in terms of various parameters such as fixed, mutable, cardinal and the 4 elements representing physical, emotional, mental and spiritual qualities. These parameters can be combined in many proportions and lead to a more varied designation of character types than such primitive designations as the four humours, or introvert/extrovert and the other parameters of modern psychology. Astrology also postulates that the character types can be arranged in a cyclic pattern to show the spiritual purpose of each type. Ostensibly these types are linked to the position of the planets, sun and moon at birth. This may seem far-fetched, untenable, or pseudo-science, but not to me. Michel Gauquelin (author of “The Spheres of Destiny”) set out to debunk astrology statistically and ran into odds in the millions against there being no correlation. So I decided to do statistical research myself, being a scientist, B Sc (UCT,1955) and found correlations with chance of error being 1 in 2250 for one parameter, 1 in 14200 for another, and 1 in 3125 in another. These figures were based on an analysis of 420 geniuses. The results were published in 5 articles in 1983/4. I have copied the first 3 of these articles to sites.google.com/site/AstrologyArticles for anyone interested.
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Post by withinsilence on Nov 18, 2011 18:27:10 GMT
The most important word for me - not that I want to exaggerate the importance of words - is: Acceptance. I'd like to illustrate that with a quotation from I Ching by Sam Reifler: my favourite teacher of many. 1. Thus you do not completely, deeply, effortlessly accept the will of God. - Sam Reifler, I Ching / Hex 51 / moksha I started using the I Ching (by Brian Walker) several months ago and I must say at first I was skeptical but now I am really relating to it and the hex's I throw relate pretty well to my current life situation. It seems as the more one trust's it the truer it is? This week I threw Hex 61/Chung Fu/ Inner Truth I do not read it as a book, but throw one once a week as a start to the week. I also use 3 coins that have special meaning to me.
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Post by charliegee on Nov 19, 2011 16:51:51 GMT
I don't know much about the I Ching, science or astrology but acceptance of your life and its conditions is the first step to any kind of peace ... I spent most of my life avoiding feelings, situations and the inevitable but it wasn't until I faced the simple (not for me) fact that to go through things rather than around them was the most productive and effective way to live ,,,
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Post by gurthbruins on Nov 19, 2011 22:22:48 GMT
I started using the I Ching (by Brian Walker) several months ago and I must say at first I was skeptical but now I am really relating to it and the hex's I throw relate pretty well to my current life situation. It seems as the more one trust's it the truer it is? This week I threw Hex 61/Chung Fu/ Inner Truth I do not read it as a book, but throw one once a week as a start to the week. I also use 3 coins that have special meaning to me. Inner Truth. What a lovely title for this week.
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Post by freethinker on Nov 20, 2011 0:04:02 GMT
Inner Truth. What a lovely title for this week. OK, I'm getting into a terminology thingy here. What is Inner Truth? What is it as opposed to, ah, Outer Truth? Is this a subjective - objective dichotomy? I am religious only because of a personal experience (meaning that I accept the existence of God), not because of religious teaching, so a lot of stuff is incomprehensible to me.
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Post by withinsilence on Nov 20, 2011 2:18:18 GMT
freethinker, Inner Truth, the truth with-in you. Not outside of you but that which is within. Not operating within the egoic mind (identity-reactionary) but consciously acting or non action out of truth. I will write Hex 61 (Inner Truth) of the I Ching and you can draw your own conclusion.
Arriving at the correct solution to a difficult situation requires a receptivity to inner truth. Unless we are willing to put aside the strong emotions of our egos and devote ourselves to discovering what is right, there can be no hope of progress at this time. Help only comes when we invite it with a sincere and innocent attitude. The I Ching teaches a simple but effective method of influencing difficult people and arduous situations. It advises us first to lay aside our prejudices-our feelings of being wounded, angry, or in the right-and second to seek to understand the position of others and the lessons that the Sage is teaching us with the situation. Even when another is truly out of line, it is only by accepting this and remaining balanced that you make it possible for a positive change to occur. Gentleness and understanding create in others an unconscious willingness to be led. The superior person therefore avoids the use of anger and force in trying times, knowing that they only prolong conflict. It is far wiser to accept that each experience we have is necessary for us to learn something about ourselves and about the higher laws of life. The greatest openings come when we meet difficulty with acceptance, gentleness and a desire to understand the lesson underneath.
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Post by freethinker on Nov 20, 2011 3:16:50 GMT
OK. That reads like something Confucius would tell a disciple. It doesn't fit my schedule though, because I don't want to lead anybody. A nudge toward a path that has a chance of leading somewhere good is the extent of my ambition - both giving and receiving - and the forks in that path have no signposts. The Inner Truth may be hard to distinguish from the Inner Delusion.
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Post by gurthbruins on Nov 20, 2011 5:52:24 GMT
This sentence: "Gentleness and understanding create in others an unconscious willingness to be led." actually appealed to me the most out of this wonderful interpretation (by Brian Walker, I presume?) Maybe you can leave that sentence for me, then, freethinker, and take the rest for yourself? lol. There's a lot there that would apply to leading somewhere good, don't you think?
I can understand your reluctance to be a leader. It's a reluctance I have felt most of my life too. A few years back a friend told me I was a leader. I didn't like that at all. "How can I be a leader if I have no followers?", I asked. "You lead yourself," she replied. An interesting idea. Would you be willing to lead yourself along the path of your ambition? -------------------- =========== I have also seen this hexagram 61 translated as "Inmost Sincerity." In my Sam Reifler book it is called "Understanding". here's an excerpt:
artha: Your greatest strength lies in your clear vision. You view the world without prejudice, with an uncluttered, healthy mind. You deal with people humanely, unselfishly, lovingly. You understand yourself and can empathise with everyone, even those who feel antipathetic or hostile to you. The bond between you and your fellow men goes beyond cultural differences. It is not simply a sympathetic similarity of hopes and fears. You sense the divine image in all men and you perceive the tragedy of the human condition. The close attachment you feel to your fellow man is not forced. You cannot control it. You cannot turn it off or on. You may even not be completely aware of it, as such. According to the values of your culture you are not an extraordinary person. But anything you undertake will be successful. The time is right for far-reaching changes and momentous activity on your part.
kama: You are fortunate that you can love Friend as much as you love others not as close to you. This is not as cryptic as it sounds. Most people can find it in themselves to love mankind in general with a humane and unselfish love and to treat acquaintances with warmth and fairness; but many of the same people find it impossible to love those close to them without anxiety and to treat them as brotherly equals. What you may lack in the romantic graces or the popular affectations of affection, you make up many times over by the health, warmth, and humanity of your love for Friend.
moksha: You are not a saint. A saint, a bodhisattva, is one who has been enlightened and returns to live in the world according to his revelation. You have no need for enlightenment because you have not yet lost the self-knowledge that most people lose at an early age. A revelation is only the conceptualisation of what you have understood all along, naturally, instinctively, and thoughtlessly, without revelation. Spiritual practice, the practice of moksha , for most people is like a journey from darkness into light. For you it is a simplehearted and - yes - simpleminded celebration of your constant, always unenacted, unconceptualised, union with God.
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Post by withinsilence on Nov 20, 2011 13:14:18 GMT
IMVHO it is not saying to lead anyone from a hierarchy of power or as I know and you don't let me show you the ONLY way. A true master has NO followers as "desiring" followers would be a egoic thought or from the false identity. A master doesn't go and "get" students, rather disciples come to the master to be set free from themself as the "self" is the only thing who holds "you" captive, in bondage to thoughts=desires. The word disciple comes from the word discipline as those who come to a master "want" to be taught (disciplined) in the correct ways of life. Hex 61 is teaching one that as it is gentle with others so it is gentle with itself. The teacher is also the teached. Think about this....do you truly know why anybody does what they do? I mean 100% know what their intent is behind their actions or words? Not what you "think" you know but is your assumption (judgment) of the person 100% true that you would stake your life on it? And don't believe for a second that because someone says they're telling you the "trtuh" that they are as most people are stuck in fear of facing the truth....their truth thus they put up walls and masks (lies) to cover the deep hurts within them. What I am getting at is, in truth we truly don't know the depth of why people do what they do thus one who is patient, kind, gentle and treats theirself and others this way, helps open the locked door (heart) that wants so desparetly to release the hurt, pain, guilt, shame and all those things that keep us in bondage (fear). The next time you have a situation where someone says or does something unkind (and this someone may be you) don't react to the thoughts (judgments) that are going to instantly come into your mind that will be negative & unkind, just observe them, watch them, smile and say and do nothing. Watch what happens as they dissolve into the nothing that they are. As the old saying goes; "kill'em with kindness" kill the negative thoughts. Here is a lesson from the Tao Te Ching:
Teach those who desire to be taught Speak to those who desire to listen Show love to those who don’t Show kindness to the unkind Show mercy to the merciless Show forgiveness to the unforgiving Be faithful to the unfaithful Be truth full to the liars For this is the true nature Can one learn without opposites? That which knows its true nature Leeds others to find their true nature with love, not force
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Post by freethinker on Nov 20, 2011 15:09:53 GMT
[snips - made only to shorten my post] =========== I have also seen this hexagram 61 translated as "Inmost Sincerity." In my Sam Reifler book it is called "Understanding". here's an excerpt: [snip] . Your quotation from Sam Reifler is well written; there is an (egoistic?) urge to accept its 'story' as applying to me. Being irrevocably a Vermont hillbilly, I must resist the urge, and reject its conclusions as invalid for me, or for anyone I know; it looks and feels like 'stroking'. I am a committed humanist, and 'brotherly love' is a requirement for that commitment, but the very little difference I can make in the human condition is the equivalent of a gnat's shove - or if it is 'tough love', a single noseeum's bite.
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