Are humans special?

[popee]

Are humans special, or just a smart ape?

One's own ego probably leans towards "special".
Cold hard facts point to "smart ape".

[gurthbruins]

Present company excepted, of course, but for my money humans are specially stupid, not smart.
They are clever, but foolishness is not what I call smart.

Though to be fair, I think that if any of the other apes had been given a cerebral cortex and "cleverness" like ours, they would probably have made just as much of a mess of things.

Gone against nature, despoiled the planet, exterminated other species to extinction, you know the story.

[freethinker]

The more scientists study the primates in their communities, and primitive human societies in theirs, the fewer 'special' attributes can be found to be exclusively human. Social morality and even altruism have been observed in the monkeys and apes. We may soon be left with only the development of religion.

[withinsilence]

Man has lived a life against his true nature due to the monetized life he has created due to his own ignorance in the belief of separation and scarcity which are both fear based, for its the belief in scarcity, that the world is not abundant that creates greed and this is the long lasting effect of our original sin nature of our original survival extinct. Man originally needed a way to survive (by any means=sin) long enough to begin to evolve into a whole being that he is ever so slowly becoming, one with a reasoning mind, one that sees that nature is not our enemy but our abundant provider and sustainer of life and that the only way for our specie to survive is to work in interdependence and unity. I think that man is at the tipping point of a radical change in consciousness as many, many people are starting to awaken to the ignorant life we've been living. We all must take up the task to change ourselves, to help nature as best we can, and to live by examples as most people won't change by you telling them their stupid but by showing them by example they may begin to see the truth of who they're not and start to remove all the false masks (Identities) they live behind. The human body is very old but the development of the mind is young in comparison and man is just recently beginning to learn how it functions in a healthy psychological state, as there have been many in life who learned how it functions properly by careful observation and inquiry i.e. Buddha, Jesus, Lao Tzu and all those "enlightened" or highly conscious "aware" souls who have been trying to teach man who his true whole self is. Just my opinion.

[popee]

WS - a lot of that stuff you said is "religion" based, "original sin" and such.
and freethinker said, "We may soon be left with only the development of religion."

I think most of the religion stuff is just ideas man came up with, to try and explain the unexplainable. But there are no facts to support any of it, no proof anywhere you look. Only "beliefs".

I vote smart ape. Alive, and that's it. The rest is just nature taking its course.

[withinsilence]

The word original sin is a description of mans origin of evolution, his being born out of nature and into this world as an ignorant animal. The word sin means missing the mark as originally man was unable to hit the mark as he was not developed into his perfected self yet. The word religion literally means; that which ties back or that which binds, like a books binding holds all the "separate" pages together as "one whole" completed product of someones thoughts i.e. we are living in the mind of "God" as it is reality that rules! I subscribe to no religion as they are all the product of man's mind and only breed more separation, judgment, hatred, violence and war as religion alone has more blood on its hands than any other cause and for what......why.....how......because they all justify it in the name of "their" god and "their" cause and "their" beliefs. All beliefs are based in fear as beliefs are repressed doubt and are the denial of truth!

[popee]

And again, we're back to "problems". I don't think there are any. That scenario seems to imply "a creator" placed man here in an imperfect state, and he will suffer until he regains that perfection. That story may point towards something meaningful, but not if you get lost in the "story" part. I think everything is perfect, exactly as it is, and nothing needs improved upon.

[withinsilence]

If you think nothing needs to be improved upon then what is the point of living? Life is a path to perfection or at least becoming all that we can be. If man never improved upon himself we would still be using sticks to kill something to eat and learning how to create fire to cook it! Life is the creator of itself. The energy of life not an entity as a being but an intelligent all knowing energy source.

[popee]

There is no point in living, per se. There is just ... living. Why isn't that good enough? Why seek something "more"?

Man has intelligence, and he uses it, so what? But he is seldom "satisfied", why is that?

[freethinker]

Nov 28, 2011 16:40:48 GMT popee said:

WS - a lot of that stuff you said is "religion" based, "original sin" and such.
and freethinker said, "We may soon be left with only the development of religion."

I think most of the religion stuff is just ideas man came up with, to try and explain the unexplainable. But there are no facts to support any of it, no proof anywhere you look. Only "beliefs".

I vote smart ape. Alive, and that's it. The rest is just nature taking its course.

I'd like to make clear that I have no bones to pick with religion per se. I accept the hypothesis (note the 'standard meaning' of the word) that religion came about, probably not long after the advent of language, as a means of codifying and strengthening community-based rules in primitive societies. The creation of a hierarchy is inevitable then.

One problem with any oligarchy/hierarchy is the (strong) urge on the part of the leaders to preserve their status, both for themselves and for their progeny.

And that, my friends, is when organized religion started going to hell. It's come a long way since.

[gurthbruins]

First I want to "confess" that I am inherently changeable (double mutable) and inconsistent.

Having said that, I may add that I see nothing wrong with that.

Nor with anything else. At this moment I am seeing things popee's way.

For me, there has never been any progress in the history of man. Only a continued decline from the uncivilised animal. The invention of fire (cooking) changed man from a hunter-gatherer to an agriculturist living on cooked grains, which I regard as the primary source of all physical illness.
(I have eaten no cooked food for almost a year now.) All our technology is the source of troubles. More than they are worth.

Any "improvements" I may desire are just ad hoc adjustments to satisfy the natural cravings and impulses of man. Acceptance remains the foundation of all my thought. The present is perfect. Change is optional but more likely to be bad than good. If it works, don't fix it. I am enjoying life, and if I don't tomorrow, so what? That's fine too. I'll cross that bridge later: Jesus says take no thought for the morrow, and I have enough faith to go that way.

There is one great compensation for our great misfortune "progress", however. That is Art. Nietzsche said "Art is the supreme counter-agent to all will to the denial of life."

And for me, the best point of living. The Real point of life, I believe, is a mystery known only to God.

[withinsilence]

Nov 28, 2011 17:34:01 GMT popee said:

There is no point in living, per se. There is just ... living. Why isn't that good enough? Why seek something "more"?

Man has intelligence, and he uses it, so what? But he is seldom "satisfied", why is that?

If your not seeking anything more than why are you on this site? For what as there is no point to it, nothing to learn, nothing to gain, nothing to improve upon... right? I am content but it took me an arduous path to reach it which if I had settled for mediocrity I would still be the same a-hole ego jag -ff I used to be, but I found a way out of it. Is this not progress? Is this not a possible point to life to improve the human condition?

[withinsilence]

Nov 28, 2011 18:50:18 GMT gurthbruins said:

First I want to "confess" that I am inherently changeable (double mutable) and inconsistent.

Having said that, I may add that I see nothing wrong with that.

Nor with anything else. At this moment I am seeing things popee's way.

For me, there has never been any progress in the history of man. Only a continued decline from the uncivilised animal. The invention of fire (cooking) changed man from a hunter-gatherer to an agriculturist living on cooked grains, which I regard as the primary source of all physical illness.
(I have eaten no cooked food for almost a year now.) All our technology is the source of troubles. More than they are worth.

Any "improvements" I may desire are just ad hoc adjustments to satisfy the natural cravings and impulses of man. Acceptance remains the foundation of all my thought. The present is perfect. Change is optional but more likely to be bad than good. If it works, don't fix it. I am enjoying life, and if I don't tomorrow, so what? That's fine too. I'll cross that bridge later: Jesus says take no thought for the morrow, and I have enough faith to go that way.

There is one great compensation for our great misfortune "progress", however. That is Art. Nietzsche said "Art is the supreme counter-agent to all will to the denial of life."

And for me, the best point of living. The Real point of life, I believe, is a mystery known only to God.

No progress? What art could be created with out the invention of canvas, paint, lead pencils, clay and a way to fire it, tools to carve wood, music to dance to, words to sing, paper to write on which now the computer is replacing which will help save some trees. What about recycling that's not progress? I sure hope you guy's don't live in houses, don't drive cars, ride bikes, use the train, electricity, fire, any tools to cook with or eat with, listen to music, or enjoy any of the products of modern mans ability to use his imagination to create helpful things to make life better. And you rag on technology but yet were all on one of man's greatest inventions called the computer which uses electricity to operate and you say there is no progress? Did we all not come to this site to help each other and ourselves gain different perspectives of life? Have we not be able to share some heart felt conversations without ever seeing, meeting, or talking verbally to one another over great distances? Is this not progress? Is not relationships the point of life, even animals have them! Have you not watched how they play together?
Think not that I don't notice the destruction man has caused on his quest for betterment as I know it well. Think not that the weapons of mass destruction, the depleted uranium with millions of years of shelf life, the chemical and biological creations man has thought up to wipe-out himself, the food wastage that would more than feed the world, the ravaging of the forests, the polluted water, air, the fracturing of shale for oil and all the sorry short and long term consequence man has created for himself on his path of progress as a result of his lack of vision and ignorance, think not that I take it lightly. But I am an optimist and I know that if man has the capacity to create this much wrath, destruction, pain and suffering that he also has the same capacity to learn from his mistakes, and correct the wrongs and heal mother earth and himself or at least die trying. Will he do this I don't know, but I do know that I will not go down a pessimist. "You see the world the way it is and ask why; I dream thing that never were and say why not!" George Bernard Shaw

[gurthbruins]

withinsilence says: "But I am an optimist." And a most inspiring one! Don't let us drag you into the mud, ws, LOL, we need you to pull us out of it!! If you can, LOL.

Even if we feel OK as we are.... ?? - Life remains paradoxical. Let it happen! (whatever does).

I am reading "Return from Troy" (Lindsay Clarke) now. You must feel as if your fellows are living in the land of the lotus-eaters, couldn't care a damn about anything. If you want to try to build a new world, go ahead. Good luck, I won't try to disillusion you.

Your point about art: I agree that without "progress" we'd have not much art. We'd have real life, we wouldn't need art. With "progress", however, we need art so much we'd die without it.

When I used to eat cooked food, I was sick. I had to listen to classical music two hours a day to preserve my sanity. Then I stopped eating cooked food. Immediately my need for music disappeared: I was perfectly happy without it. I think the first chapter of The Ascent of Humanity supports my condemnation of civilisation, with all its departures from nature. There are no Stradivarius violins in Nature. We don't need them, we don't need computers, we don't need this forum, if we could have nature back. Of course we never can. We've gone down a one-way street. Now we're hooked on all our crutches, all our drugs. The abyss beckons!

[tathagata]

So all the things that science use to use to Seperate humans from animals has been eroded in the last couple decades hehehe

Tool making and using... Nope, the smartest birds have been shown tyo both make and use tools... And certain monkeys and apes have been seen to do that for awhile.

Language?... Nope... Many whale and dolphin species have been shown to have much more complicated languages than our own

Lieing... Nope, they have observed male whales Lieing to trick a female whale into mating with them...hehehe... Seems to be the most common reason for Lieing in the world lol

The only thing left that humans have been witnessed doing that animals have not is a saying no to the instincts for food and sex.... No animal has ever been observed fasting or practicing abstenance by choice lol

So apparently saying no to the basic instincts for food shelter and sex and survival are the only things that Seperate humans from animals.... Until the next scientific discovery lol